PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast
PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast
The Geologist's License: How the FG and PG Exams Get Built — with Keith Rapp
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In this episode, we sat down with Keith Rapp, senior hydrogeologist, longtime volunteer with ASBOG (the Association of State Boards of Geology), and immediate past president of the organization. We dug into the professional geologist licensure process — what the FG (Fundamentals of Geology) and PG (Practice of Geology) exams actually test, how questions get written and vetted by panels of subject matter experts, why some states require licensure and others don't, and why Keith argues that licensure is fundamentally about protecting public health and safety.
Keith walked us through his path from growing up in Duluth with a geomicrobiologist uncle, to a master's in hydrogeology at Baylor, to a career cleaning up contaminated sites using microbes — what he calls hydrogeomicrobiochemistry. We talked about his current work on PFAS bioremediation, the idea of "pushing evolution" by engineering biofilm environments where microbes can adapt to degrade forever chemicals, and the role of zeolites as remediation media.
We also got into the practical stuff students and early-career geologists actually want to know: how to study for the FG exam, why test scores point you toward weak domains, what reciprocity between states looks like, the difference between an ASBOG license and an AIPG Certified Professional Geologist (CPG) designation, and why writing skills still matter in a hiring pile. We closed with a conversation about AI in geoscience — where it helps, where it gets you in trouble when your name is on a signed report, and how the profession should think about it going forward.
If you're a student preparing for the FG, a working geologist thinking about getting licensed in another state, or just curious about how a professional credentialing system gets built and maintained, this one is for you. The ASBOG annual meeting is in Hershey, PA this October — open to anyone interested in the profession.
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Welcome to Planet Geo, the podcast where we talk about our amazing planet, how it works, and why it matters to you. Dr. Joshua HFL Davis, how's it going? I'm good. I'm good. Thank you, uh Professor Rymink. Are you feeling uh invigorated uh about about the professional geology license year? I I am. I I felt like uh this was a an it's a complic it's a bit of a complicated uh process, but it's useful to talk to somebody in the know about this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it I mean I I've actually I I found um Keith to be such an engaging and nice and warm person. I mean, just being in his presence somehow uh made me want to join it, made me want to join the associations. I don't know uh that's uh part of how it works.
SPEAKER_00I agree completely. I mean, so we just got done talking to Keith Rapp. Um Keith is uh a senior hydrogeologist uh and has been a senior hydrogeologist for and senior project manager for several different companies uh for much of his career. Uh he has an undergrad degree, as he talked about, from University of Minnesota and then a master's in hydrogeology from Baylor. Uh started a PhD and then got uh a big boy job, it sounded like a little bit that that uh made him leave leave that process uh early on. But he was um he has been deeply entrenched and involved in Asbog, the Association of State Boards of Geology. Um and so in talking about this professional geology licensure process, who better to talk to than Keith Rapp, who was uh you know deeply involved. He was treasurer of Asbog. He is now past president, so last year he was the president of Asbog, and is just as is conveyed in this interview, he's deeply passionate about the field of geology, about the profession of geology, and and and therefore has gotten involved a lot in the um the the the licensure process here, in the you know, writing these exams and spending all this really volunteer time to help out um the community of geologists. So he's also extremely passionate about research.
SPEAKER_02I mean, he he's saying that his in his daily life is actually essentially doing the job of a researcher.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh so it's so it was so fun. I mean, so fun to hear um, you know, how this path has has taken him and and what the value he gives a really compelling pitch for you know how students should really think about the licensure process. And you know, even sort of frankly says, you know, when I'm looking at candidates to hire, whether they've taken the FG exam is one thing that matters, uh, as well as you know, any grad school degrees and things like that. So it's in that category, it's elevated for him in that category for sure. And that's a that's something we've heard a lot from people in the environmental consulting space, the hydrogeology space, the the the the the the professional geology space is that this stuff is important to consider for students. So yeah, I I agree. Completely uplifting conversation, very fun to talk about, and I agree. I want to go to Gettysburg and go on these field trips with the Asbog group, because if there's a bunch of people like Keith Rapp there, that sounds like a fun place to be. Absolutely. And you should make the trip down from uh from Quebec. From Quebec, yeah. I mean, I would like to. I would like to if they if they let me in. If they let you, if you're allowed. I'm allowed. Strange, strange geochronologist from Montreal coming down. Uh no, that would be great. Yeah, that'd be super fun. And more excuses to hang out. That'd be great. Um, all right, Josh. Let's uh let's get to Keith Rap. Interview with Keith Rap. Okay. Keith Rap. Welcome to Planet Geo. Uh, thanks for joining us here, and we're excited to talk about all things licensure and I guess geo micro all sorts of different bio uh subdisciplines of geology that you're in right now. So welcome. Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_03Yes, thank you. I'm glad to be here and uh I'm looking forward to this. It's a long time coming.
SPEAKER_00This will be great. Yeah, yeah. We've been uh well, we you and I have been uh in communication, I don't know, maybe going on a year now since you emailed us or emailed me a while back about you were one of the original emails of like maybe four or five that were like, hey, you guys should start talking about the the PGO, the professional licensure more. And uh and you stuck out because you were the president of Asbog at the time uh when we started talking about this. So we're excited to kind of center the conversation around that. But uh before we get into it, we would like to start out with the traditional opening question, which is what got you into geosciences and was there any kind of aha moment? So what's your what's your background? How'd you get into the field?
SPEAKER_03Uh I grew up in northern Minnesota, up in Duluth, and I have an uncle who's uh was a kind of a preeminent geobiologist. He went to Penn State as well, and he wrote um the Encyclopedia of Minerals.
SPEAKER_01So wow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, when I was a young kid, I always knew I was gonna be a geologist from you know three years old.
SPEAKER_02And um, mineral collections.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I have a huge collection here in this room and in the yard and in my orchard and you you name it. So I I was preordained, I think, to be a geologist.
SPEAKER_00So oh, that's very cool. Okay, and not only a geologist, but a geomicrobiologist, even more specifically. That's pretty impressive. I don't think I've ever met anybody who had an uncle who is a geomicrobiologist.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was a rare discipline back then, I would imagine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I've kind of gone a little bit more, and what really what I do is what we call now hydrogeomicrobichemistry. I do love it. That's I do um in situ bioremediation and and and things like that. And so what my job is is cleaning up sites and I use microbes. I use natural fungus, bacteria, protists, that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00So how did you why why did you uh why did you ever listen to Chris and I? Because we're always talking crap about biology, and so you must have had to kind of grit your teeth and bear it through through Chris and I's long rambling complaints about biology.
SPEAKER_03No, you know, I do I actually the last the last one that you had with him about talking about bio, I listened intently because I'm thinking to myself, eventually they're gonna come around.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, eventually.
SPEAKER_03And and in that podcast, you guys did. I mean, you guys actually at the end were like, oh yeah, there's something about this, right? And particularly when you asked, I think a question of Chris or maybe Chris asked of you, like what classes would you more classes would you have taken? And when I go around, I I've cycled off our Minnesota licensure board here a couple years ago, and then just recently with Asbog, and I would go around and give talks to all of our universities here in Minnesota and even neighboring states like South Dakota, which aren't Asbog states.
SPEAKER_00And um Good good just real quick, Keith, can you clarify what you mean by an Asbog state, real quick? Just brief intro, and and we'll get into Asbog more later.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so 31 states are uh members of Asbog, which is the Association of State Boards of Geology, and that is the states that license professional geologists. And it starts out with um uh fundamentals, which you take when you're in school, and then after you've worked over a while, you can take your PG in that state or actually now in any other state. Well, I'm sure we'll get into talk about test taking and that kind of stuff. But Minnesota is a state that is license requires licensure. Uh neighboring states, not so much. North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa.
SPEAKER_02Uh why why would a state not be part of uh Hasbrook?
SPEAKER_03Exactly, right? And actually, I I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you, Josh, part of the problem that I see, and having gone through this now for a decade, is I really feel for the students in these states because uh I'll just use South Dakota as an example. Um it used to be South Dakota was a uh tons of individual farmers. Well now those farms have been bought up by conglomerates and they run factory farms across states. They hire geologists to you know do things like manage their well fields and pumps and stuff like that. When a state doesn't license geology and and and they're missing out, their students are getting out of school at a small uh state like South Dakota, and then they have to come to Minnesota or a bigger state, maybe they're not licensed, and right away they're there's a they're at a disadvantage, right? So I would always and and ASBOG people um I'll always try to go and expand this out to all the states. And I do believe that it will eventually, just like the engineers, like with Nisi's uh engineering council, we will be in all 50 states because really Licenger is all about health and safety. And in fact, I'm gonna tell you that that's really all it's about. It's about the protection of human health and safety. And so you know, people view it oftentimes as an impediment to working, but that's not really the case because we make it so prescriptive and easy, right? You should be able to graduate uh from any uh degree university in the country and pass the FG and pass the PG. So there's not a reason to do it, it's more a reason of taxation licensures, that kind of a mindset that you you probably just realize that we're going through in this country. We uh hope it's a temporary type issue. But um so we are growing and we've had uh several uh states uh that are um just joined, and New York was the latest, and we've had and we've had um other states that are interested. And a lot of that time truthfully, uh Jesse, uh it gets momentum from the students, from the students who are saying, Hey, if I'm not licensed and I gotta compete against a guy or a woman, you know, a geologist from another state, I'm gonna be at a disadvantage because they offer these things. They have a certification program. When I sign a document, when I sign a report, my name is on it and I'm responsible for it.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So uh yeah, go ahead, Josh. Do you have a question?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I was just gonna, I mean, I was just gonna ask you with uh Keith, whether you with that in mind, did you just get license straight out of your undergraduate?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. What was can you can you I was gonna ask that same question, Keith. And how how did that uh personally, how did you what was your licensure pathway and and even broader than that, what was your educational background? Like you, you know, you knew you were gonna be a geologist. Did you know you were gonna be a geomicrobiologist? And if so, how did you select colleges to go to? What was that decision-making process like for you?
SPEAKER_03No, um, I went to school at University of Minnesota for my bachelor's degree. Then I went to school in um at Baylor University in Waco, Texas, got my master's in hydrogeology and and geophysics, and then I went on to do my doctorate in North Dakota. And in the late mid-1980s and late 1980s, in the upper Midwest, we had a terrible drought. And basically, if you could spell groundwater, you got a job. That was the only and sole requirement. And so companies would come to the universities, and if somebody like me who's got a master's in hydrogeology, easy pickings, right? You're you know, uh you're a starving doctoral student and somebody's throwing money at you, it's real easy to say, I'm gonna go to work for a couple years and you know, make some money and come back. And I I didn't yet, but I keep um telling my daughter I'm gonna go to school with her and finish my doctorate and make her life uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that would be quite funny. You know, when Josh and I were in graduate school at the University of Alberta together, um, I had uh at one point I had gotten a you know a teaching assistant award or something like that, which just meant you got to go to the faculty club with the faculty assigned other people who'd won their departmental teaching assistant awards, uh, with like the dean or science or whatever. Anyway, and the the teaching assistant of the year award for the math department had gone to a former high school teacher who'd retired from high school teaching and decided, well, I don't want to retire. I'm like 55. I'm gonna go get my PhD in math. And he was actually doing a PhD with former students in the same like graduate student school class in math. And I was like, that is so cool. I mean, this is just and obviously you won the teaching assistant award because you had like 35 years of high school math education background for him. So anyway, yeah, it sounds like a good point.
SPEAKER_03So to finish up though, um, so I got out of school back in in 87. I went to work here in the Twin Cities, and everything that we're trying to do was, you know, a lot of the water supplies and things like that. So I didn't actually fulfill my educational desires yet. I'm still working on it. But in order to do what I've been doing, I do more research now than when I was a doctoral student or a master's student because what I do, there's really no classes in this. It's a bunch of people who do what I do who get together and geek out about you know the intersection of chemistry, biology, and geology. And so when I go talk to these microbiologists, I am just enthralled and I get so much out of each of these conversations, and I am literally a pest to them. They cannot wait to get away from me because I've got, you know, off the top of my head, you know, 15 elevator, you know, questions that you want to ask. And so that is one of the things that, you know, like I wish that I had had an opportunity or I had the bandwidth to take more chemistry and more biology, but I would have no forward knowledge of what I'm doing today.
SPEAKER_00So so kick I I mean uh the geo uh geobiology is a super interesting topic, and I think I mean super this could take w up many episodes worth of of taught discussion, I think, to learn from you about about what's interesting in the space. And maybe we could touch on it, but I have a quick question about the the the sort of licensure process. So when did you think, oh, I should go get my PGE, my PGO degree? And yeah, maybe it will just start there. Like when did that process start for you professionally?
SPEAKER_03I d I think I'm in I think I am licensed in five different states. Um when I first started, when the licensure program first started out, there wasn't an Asbog. Or Asbog was just, I think, really in development and only one or two states had it. But all these states, like I do a lot of work in Missouri, Minnesota, Tennessee, New York, all these other states. When they first opened it up, they got your credentials from you. And if you had enough credentials and experience, they basically grandfathered you in because they got like 10,000 applications, and you know, there's no way that they were going to be able to do it. So my first, I think my first state was grandfathered in and then quite uh unexpectedly, when you are writing the Asbog test, they don't let you take the Asbog test. So I have been getting in with through my experience and and whatnot. So, you know, like I have literally taken the the uh FG test uh 30 or 40 times, you know, and the PG as well. So officially I have either get been granted a license just from my experience or grandfathered in, or another states will have actually agreements with other states as if you meet the requirements of let's just say Wisconsin, you are the same with the requirements as Minnesota. So you can it's basically just paperwork sending a check and it's real easy. Um licensure is a state issue, and every state is different, but a lot of states are very, very similar.
SPEAKER_00But so did you not? Did you do this what what uh after you'd started working um as a hydrogeologist regularly? Or was this something that happened in your master's or undergrad where you're exposed to this in your undergrad? Or was this much later? It was it was later.
SPEAKER_03It was it was when I was within my first couple of years.
SPEAKER_00And and do you think I and just to clarify for students and maybe for me too, like what is the the relative value? Do you do you um was not getting a PhD a hindrance in any way? Or was the PG licensure kind of a how how compare and contrast those? The master's, PhD, PGO, you know, they all fit together and play nice together as well, but is there any contrasting that you can do between them for students at the moment?
SPEAKER_03Uh the the academic world where you guys are is, you know, predominantly PhD. The mid-80s, when I got out of school, the standard consulting person had a bachelor's degree. Most didn't have master's degrees, but a lot of those that did were hydros because they were continuing on. And so I had that as well. And so it was easy for me to get on with a bigger company. And, you know, like I did a lot of groundwater modeling and a bunch of other stuff when I started out. So it was real easy for me to just continue on and get my PG through applying and grandfathering in and all these and these other ways as well. And then I also had a stint of about 15 years where I did a lot of work overseas for a lot large manufacturing company. So I got indoctrinated into the Federation of European Geologists and and a lot of other things as as well. So stepping into Asbog was kind of just a real smooth transition for for me. So not having a PhD wasn't an impediment because of the times. Now somebody with a master's who's doing what I do, they would be at a di disadvantage going in with just a bachelor's because they wouldn't have had enough hydrochemistry, biology, as well as as other things too. I mean, it's it's not just those simple things.
SPEAKER_00So when you're hiring, you look for master's level people, is that correct?
SPEAKER_03For well, this when I'm hiring, there's a lot of things I look at. Do you have do you have a master's degree? Do you have have you taken the FG? Because a lot of times you see the the students there coming out and they'll take their their FG test in their last semester, right? Or they're going to take it, right? And so those those applications make it to the top of my resume pile. And then also people with master's degree with a couple years of experience, it's easy now to find out a lot more about that individual through social media, LinkedIn, personal web pages. They might be working for a company, that kind of stuff now. So you can get a lot more information today about a person's individual uh capabilities than you could before cell phones were even a thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Okay. Um I just wanted to ask one small thing, Keith. You mentioned you're so you're licensed in five different states. Is that right? Something like that. Um it's it's basically the uh the only thing you need to do, assuming that the the rules are essentially similar between those five states. Do you have to pay an individual license to each state? Or do you pay one license that kind of covers multiple states somehow? I mean, if I was a student, that's something I would be thinking about.
SPEAKER_03I'm licensed uh in Minnesota, so I every two years I pay a Minnesota fee of I think it's a hundred and some dollars, and that's my license fee. And that goes in um because there's actually back end, there's a staff that does it in Minnesota. We need to have uh continuing education, we need to have ethics training, we need to do all these things. So there is an expense that the state has as well as I'm gonna say that that's the case for all states that there's an individual fee, but there are some what we call consortiums. So like there's a consortium of Southeast states where I think there's like nine states, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, and these states are basically if you're licensed in one, you just have to fill out paperwork and you're licensed in all of them. You don't have to redo anything. So there are some things like that, but then you know, individual states are different, like Minnesota doesn't allow that kind of an agreement with any other state, and they have to literally review and get approval for every individual who's going to take the PG.
SPEAKER_00So those does the rationale for that reflect differences in state geology or the functioning of geologists in a state? I could imagine, you know, d uh professional geologists in, you know, Oregon are doing substantially different work than ones in Alabama. Is is that the reason that it's not like automatically uh the reciprocity dangerous.
SPEAKER_03No. Um every Asbog has has run what we call a task survey. About every five or so years, we send out about five thousand, I think the last one was five, we might have had like five thousand geologists respond to this task survey. And it's a whole series of questions about how you do your work. How does geology work in Pennsylvania or Minnesota or Oregon? And so we get these results back, and basically the overlap is so strikingly similar that a national exam that you can write is applicable to Oregon and Florida, right? So the Florida kids they might be struggling with the glacial questions, and the f you know, the uh Oregon kids might be uh struggling with, you know, uh soils and and you know, some karst and things like that that they have down in in Florida. And so each state is different, but the geology and how geology is practiced in each state. Is essentially the same. So the rules come from the people who make the rules. It doesn't come from like I was on our board and we did have law packages that we would send to the legislature and they'd discuss them and incorporate them and or hope to whatever extent that they wanted to. But the rules are pretty simple because what we're really doing, the state is basically accepting the Asbog exam as the requirements for licensure within that state. Right? So Asbog doesn't give out a license. The state gives the individual, the candidate from Pennsylvania to the Pennsylvania board, and the Pennsylvania board will send that individual, uh, congratulations, you passed. You're now a professional geologist, and here you go. And and that's kind of how that goes. And then I guess one other thing. There are states also that have their own state-specific exams. California has one, and Maine has one. And then there's an individual hydro exam in Washington, Oregon, and California. And there's been a lot of talk now with water being so important with data centers and a lot of these other things, that there's a lot of states that will probably be pushing for a state-specific exam because it really is important, right? And it that kind of information needs to be done by qualified individuals.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Within that specific state. So it's sort of regional problem based. Like the problems in Nevada with water are much different than the problems in Pennsylvania with water. Is that the idea for having state-specific or why does not Asbog just modify the exam to incorporate, you know, more hydro or something like that? Well, like I'm just It's a complicated world, so I'm trying to understand.
SPEAKER_03Well, th think about this way, Jesse. Um your s your kid grew up in Pennsylvania, but he might want to go to school in New Mexico. Right? And he's gonna study the geology in New Mexico and he's get and maybe he might be interested in the hydrogeology. He's gonna learn about that in New Mexico, but he might move back now then to Pennsylvania, right? He he was educated in the geology of New Mexico, but he's now gonna be working in Pennsylvania. He needs to know, you know, the intricacies of the hydrogeology of that. So there are I guess one of the things I'm saying is your education never really ends, right? Particularly if you're working in new states and these other kinds of stuff, as well as the PG really is a license to you only to practice in the areas that you're competent, right? So I would never go and try to do some structural analysis of some road cut, you know, for some DOT, right? I could do it. I did it, you know, I had those classes in grad school, but that's not what I would consider to be my expertise. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I am Yeah, fair enough. It's like I'm not gonna be a hydro biogeochemist.
SPEAKER_03I can train you in, you could be do it in no time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know about that.
SPEAKER_02So do does that mean there's a like a separate so I mean you can be a PGO, um professional geologist, but you can actually also be a professional hydrologist, and that's a a separate thing.
SPEAKER_03Yes. For a couple of states, yes. And actually, Josh, um Alberga administers our test. Um is it called APAC? Uh there's two or three different Canadian Well, I should I should uh email Paul Hubli. He he's um the GO Canada uh executive director, and he's great. You guys, that's your next step.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03Is Paul he's he's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Keith, the the the just while we're on this this sort of in this complicated world of licensure, trying to clarify what is I think I saw that you are also uh certified professional geologist, I think the word is from the AIPG American Institute for Professional Geology.
SPEAKER_03Professional geology.
SPEAKER_00Uh give us a little bit on that, if you can. AIPG versus the Asbog and the State Board Geologists.
SPEAKER_03So that certification is not a license, but it's a certification that you meet the standards that AIPG sets. And they do have some standards. And so in order to get certified there, you get references from uh three or more CPGs as well, and they will submit uh those on your behalf and it goes to their board and they review them. Or it would go to Minnesota because each section has a state's uh chapter. It would go to Minnesota, they would pass it on to national, and then they would you know decide the efficacy of my of my application. So but the CPG designation is important in Canada because the Canadian mining rules, when and I'm and I'm not in mining geology, there are certifications which are needed for like reserve estimates that get certified by a CPG, and that goes before investors and shareholders, and that also carries a significant weight, right? So um that's probably the biggest and the best I can uh example of the CPG designation that I can give you for AIPG. And I've been an AIPG member for like 30 some years as well.
SPEAKER_00Okay, all right, interesting. Yeah, cool. Um okay, no, that's that's super helpful. Um Josh, did I interrupt a question of yours?
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_02Uh I've at some point I I was thinking whilst whilst you were discussing, Keith, I was just I um I think you kind of answered it a little bit. I was thinking that with some of the things you were suggesting, it sounded like that for the geologists, essentially, there's not as much state-specific information in the test. It's more about general geology understanding. Um so that that it can kind of so you don't have to in the FG test, you mean in the FG test.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So in the FG test, we we don't want to be so specific state-wise, but in a sense, we are. Like we like when we t ask questions about the New Madrid fault, we're talking about southern Missouri, Tennessee, that kind of stuff. Or when we're talking about basin and range, we're talking about the western states. When we're talking about glacial, we're talking about those. We don't really ask questions about a specific geologic particular thing. It's more along the lines of the principles of geology as it relates to something within that state, or and it might only be one state, but it's it's a lot of other ones too. So um we we California, when you take the California-specific exam, it's California geology. Maine, it's Maine. When you take the hydro ones in uh um Oregon and and Washington, it's more hydro-specific, not necessarily hydro in Washington, Oregon, but there there are those as well. So state-specific exams are really kind of it's it's their opportunity to test their geologists that so that they know that they're qualified within that state. So yeah, the California and these other states have an extra step. And they're tough tests. They are very tough tests. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So uh Keith, on that note, so I want to talk about Asbog, how you got into it, and and what designing a test like this looks like, like what you think about where you're designing a test. But you said before that, you said I think you've taken it 30 something times. What is the what's the best score you've gotten and the worst score you've gotten in these tests? Have you ever gotten 100%? Have you ever failed it? Like what I mean, because it was a the FG test. I mean, I I took it this fall and it was harder than I was expecting, I think, in some ways. Or I, you know, it's it's basic stuff, but it's stuff that I hadn't thought about in a very long time, actually. And so, you know, I got questions wrong that I should not have, probably, but like a freshly graduated student probably would find very easy. Um, and so in that way I found it harder than I was expecting.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we we recently migrated from you know 20 plus years of pencil and paper tests, which are very simple. So your test is all you open up, you see, you snap that little thing on the booklet, you open your test, and when you have a pencil and paper, and when you're done, you're done. Now, with computer-based testing, we we've structured the test and rewritten a lot of our things so you don't need to really memorize equations. You don't really, it's not really math-heavy. We write the questions so that if you need an equation, we give it to you. Or if you need a principle or something like that, we give it to you. And that's more along the PG type questions, but we write the tests so that it's it's not specific to a general region or an area, but they're geologic principles. And then what we do is when we administer the test, the students will come in and they'll sit and and basically they get rid of all their phones and everything like that. And when they sit down, they're really comfortable because this is the environment that they've studied through high school, right? They've all got their personal computers, they've used to looking at questions there. A lot of them have gone through COVID, they're used to, you know, uh tests and and things like that. And and actually through COVID, a lot of really cool technologies have have come about, you know, Zoom and and uh and Teams and all these other kinds of things. So um the tests keep advancing. But uh with to your original question, Jesse, the reason I've taken the FTU about 30 times is because after the administration of each test, we get a group of subject matter experts called SMEs from across the country to go to a location. And we were just in the Ozarks about 10 days ago, going through the test, which was just given in March. We go through the test. And during the test, a student or candidate can write a question down. There's a little menu that flops up that they can say, Hey, I didn't understand this question, or hey, I think there could be two right answers for this, right? And so we look at that, and if that's the case, you know, we'll do a certain things like maybe double keying a thing, uh question or something like that, but then we'll rewrite it so that there's somebody can't have that perception again. So I oftentimes take the FG because we have so many PGs come, and so I end up taking the PG or the FG, excuse me, with all the academic academicians because that's what they're teaching, right? And that's the what they're interested in. And the reason why you probably had some anxiety over questions is the fact that you studied a long time ago and you know, and and and yeah, and I probably confused you.
SPEAKER_00There was two, well, there were two categories of I would say difficult questions. One were like kind of dead easy ones that you know, if I'd remembered the geological time scale, you know, from the Phaneroic perfectly well, like I probably should, I would have gotten it easily, but I kind of tripped myself up because I've worked in the Archean forever and I don't really you know remember all the differ the orders. I just got thrown off. Um and the like those those really basic, simple, easy ones, which I would have known 15 years ago or 20 years ago. And then the other category of ones where I'm like I'm so deep in the weeds on igneous patrology that I'm like if there's an igneous patrology question, I kind of trip myself up thinking, okay, I I you know this is actually really when you get down to the research level, it's like actually this is a complicated question. But how is it I had to back out and be like, how is this taught in the intro-level class? How is this taught in igneous patrology 101? And then answer it that way, because then it's very easy. You know, but I I kind of got myself confused because I'm I think about some of these things too deep. It's like, you know, what is a granite? You know, that's a big question in research, but but actually, like and the test, it's a simple answer. It's it's something example like that. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and the other thing we don't want to do is have people just wrote memorization like you shouldn't have to know the chemical formula for anthophylite, right? Or what you know, what is an anthophylite nice, right? So, you know, I happen to know that, and so I was really disappointed when I go into that it's on the test, but so um, but we're we're interested in like you know, the the um grades of metamorphism is is an easy question. You can you as you can think about that. You're like, why is you know philite or what's important, or index fossils when we have to do paleo, or what's an ore body? What you know, so what's the definition of an or? You know, like it's dependent upon the price, and is it a commodity? Is it can you make money? If it's not, it's not an R. And so we get a lot of uh people just screaming questions like, what do you you know? I never learned this in any class I took, and they're like, Well, you should have. You know, and that's and that's also uh uh an unfortunate thing because we have to test all of geology. And as an undergrad, you go to a small school, you might have economic offered once every four years. It might not even be offered as you go through.
SPEAKER_00And so we're real cognizant of that too, because Well, I think just on that note, Keith, real quick, I I think that you know the study guide information obviously doesn't cover everything because it, you know, no study guide thing can, but it it at least points in it, it points students directionally. So I found all the all the resources on the Asbog website, um, several other external resources that that were available. It was really helpful in just calibrating the type of question, and then you could go from there and be like, okay, uh this is an area I never learned anything about, so I have to like research or grades or v what a VMS deposit is, etc. So it was really good at pointing directionally to hey, this is an area that you should spend more time on. I hadn't thought about Darcy's law in forever. And so I was uh you know, really quickly skimming those things as the oh, I gotta I gotta brush up on this because I haven't thought about hydro hydrogeological flow in a long time.
SPEAKER_03So so one of the things that we'll try to do with that then is that I always tell with somebody will I get as you probably imagine, how do I study for this test? And I'm gonna tell people that with a broad-based undergrad education, you'll know almost most things going in. If you are and you know you're deficient in something like economic, there are study guides out there, there are places to go, and a lot of them are free. You can take the FG without buying anything. Look at the YouTube videos, look at your textbooks, look at your notes. And then there are some ones that do come at a cost where you can maybe just go, like we have a uh a modular thing with the eight domains. You can go buy um the domain on economic geology, or it's economic and energy, right? And you pay a certain amount of money, it's like a I think it's a hundred bucks or whatever that number is, and you can get and learn enough about that that you will be able, with your knowledge of background geology, you'll be able to get through that domain, right? And and and and our tests are made up of eight domains, right? We have general geology and hydrogeology and geomorphology and mineralogy, petrology, you know, that kind of stuff. So we divide it up into that. And so when you get your scores back, you also find out where you did well and where you didn't do as well. Like, you know, like as a hydro, you know, I I used hydro, right? But as the paleo and and energy, you know, uh didn't maybe do quite as well, right? And so there are things that you can, and particularly if you if you don't pass, you know where to go back and study more.
SPEAKER_02And so are past tests available um to your students, to practice. Oh, good question.
SPEAKER_03Um we do every so often we will recycle or we will retire questions. We have a a guide, um, a guidebook, a candidate guide book where a lot of those questions are, and I'm gonna say to tell people that actually the best thing that you can do to prepare for the test is go to the Canada Handbook and look at how the questions are structured. They're structured, specific, and they're they're worded specifically. So we get a lot of questions on, hey, I didn't like the wording of this question. Well, it's written a specific way because actually dialects are remarkably different around the country. And what is a weird, weirdly phrased question in Minnesota is not made necessarily in Missouri or Florida, right? So we have to take into account everybody, and so we just make sure that it's uh we read in sentences and and our our answers are written in complete sentences and things like that. So so there is there is that, Josh. And as we go through and we are now, you know, like there are things that kind of go out of date, right? So a lot of soil questions like on soil conservation service, you know, what is an SW soil? We still have those questions, but we don't have as many because now you just you have it on your phone if you're in the field, right? Do you really need to know that? Yeah, you do, but in in the FGE, we only have 140 questions. And I say only 140. I mean, I wish we could do way more than that. And then and then the PG, it's 110, right? And so also the evolution of our testing is eventually we'll get like the engineers when you are taking the test and you hit submit, you will get your score right then and there. And we won't have to do this. And the way that we're gonna be able to do that is for us to develop our test bank, our item bank, so that we have enough statistics. And I the probably the biggest thing I've learned about in Asbog is the theory of test taking. We have had some wonderful psychometricians. And when I started, I didn't know what a psychometrician was, and now I I have drinks with our psychometrician.
SPEAKER_00What is a psychometrician?
SPEAKER_03Psychometrician is the person who basically will define and and and and organize a test. And so, Jesse, if you can imagine if there's a question on on geomorphology, and you we have four uh choices, right? And if you you let's just say you picked A, so at four choices, you got a 25% chance of being right on any question, just guessing, right? But we track our test scores so that if I guessed A and that was the right answer, and that uh score can now be referenced to other questions in the test. So on question 17, the people who answered question A on the on that geomorph question, they might have got it right or wrong. So we can say that, hey, the people who did really well on this test, they all got this answer right. So it's a good question to test on because the individuals who are passing are also passing these other ones. And then the individuals who didn't do so well had, you know, didn't know somebody. So we know the serial reference numbers and all these things from all of our questions that have ever been administered since back to 1992. So as we build our test bank up, we will be able to just now get a statistically valid test right away. And like so, like if you're taking the engineering test and in civil engineer and and there's uh let's just say there's a hundred questions, if you get on question 80 and you've passed that test based on the statistics, the the machine shuts down and says, Congratulations, you passed. They don't want to give out that other 20 questions and release that because releasing these questions is actually a threat because more people get exposed to this. So we'll be moving in that direction as we uh develop our questions in our in our um test bank, and we're getting there. So we actually have sessions where we just get together and we write questions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, interesting. That sounds like an interesting exercise. It's like what you know Josh and I do on a regular basis, uh, except scaled up. How many people take the Osbog uh FG test every year?
SPEAKER_03Uh in March we had 946 signed up, and I think nine hundred and fourteen showed up. You know, there's various things why people don't show. There's tornadoes and blizzards and that kind of stuff. And I think we had four fifty-ish take the PG. So we we typically have almost twice as many FG as PG.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And is that the fall, spring? Are they kind of the same? The fall exam?
SPEAKER_03No, usually fall has more.
SPEAKER_00Has more. Okay. So you're talking about 2,000 or more uh test takers per year.
SPEAKER_03Around that. Actually, I shouldn't say that. PG more in fall, FG more in spring, because the students are coming out and graduating, there's more of that. And so we we end up more with more FGs.
SPEAKER_02Okay, interesting. What's the kind of success rate?
SPEAKER_03Well, uh the success rate is that your first time. Josh, it's on the candidate handbook.
SPEAKER_00Have you not read the candidate handbook, man? I mean, come on.
SPEAKER_03I could go into uh back here and pull one off the shelf. Um usually an individual does best their first time around. By the time they get to five or six, their chances of passing are less than twenty-five percent. They just don't get it. Yeah. So taking it a second time is a really close. uh also percentage. So and like I said before, a lot of times people just get thrown off on the test structure. And that throws them for a loop and and you know how kids are anxious, you know, they just they just don't get over it until they're out of in their parking lot in the car driving home. So um I think around uh don't quote me on this but around 65-70% pass the FG and I think a little bit higher rate passes the PG. PG is a little bit m easier. You know the students aren't as anxious. They're not they're much more prepared. You know, and then and then the other thing with with PG, because it is based on what you're doing in work, we don't have a bunch of paleontologists going to taking these tests. So we have to you know have reasonable questions that people can you know study. So like some of these niche very you know unique areas in geology they're they're harder to write questions for.
SPEAKER_00I think Keith, I I would love I'm cognizant of time here and um I would love to to hear about the hydrogeo microchemistry biology stuff you're doing. Can can you give us a a sort of uh the lowdown on what's most interesting to you right now in your in your professional life?
SPEAKER_03Well I'm gonna put a plug out Jesse here in October our annual meeting is in Hershey Pennsylvania.
SPEAKER_00Oh really?
SPEAKER_03Oh cool yes it is and we will be going and we'll have a really cool field trip. I think we're might even be going to um Three Mile Island and we're also going to go look at a lot of all crops.
SPEAKER_00Oh amazing so when is this October you said?
SPEAKER_03Yeah it's in the end of October.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03It's our the Asbog annual meeting and our Asbog annual meeting is open to anybody.
SPEAKER_00Oh awesome that's fantastic I'll definitely put that on the calendar of of trying to go to that sounds great.
SPEAKER_03Yeah and um when you pass your PG you will be able to come and help us write tests. You could do now if you applied for it there's a thing that we call um an MAL which is a person who's qualified but um they might be from a state that doesn't you know have that and so um do you accept non uh non-Americans into this MAL yes yeah well do you see do you expect strange Welsh geochronologists who work in Canada is that allowed or question yeah Paul Hubley came to our meeting in Salt Lake City last year him and his wife um he was involved in everything from our annual meeting uh because they're a parent or the sister society to Asbog uh he was able to sit in our our SMEs where we went through the tests so so not only do we do the test that we just administered we also go through the test which is going to be administered the next session. So we looked uh 10 days ago at the test that's going to be administered in Hershey. So that's already that's already a done deal.
SPEAKER_00Keith where can I find information about this? I definitely want to come if I'm allowed to even if I haven't uh quite done the PG exam um it to the Asbog thing or just come go on a field trip with you guys.
SPEAKER_03I will have Martin um send you a personal invitation.
SPEAKER_00Okay hand delivered um no that this sound this sounds super fun and you're going to uh three mile and maybe gettysburg is that what I heard you say yeah yeah how cool yeah yeah Chris and I are actually giving a a talk at Gettysburg on July 1st uh associated with the the anniversary of the battle but they're doing a bigger to-do uh because the 250th anniversary of the US this year so we're we'll be giving a talk about the geology of the Battle of Gettysburg a little bit there which will be fun so it's just a cool place beautiful beautiful area yeah that part of Pennsylvania I'm gonna put a plug in for your Camp Geo you guys have a wonderful module on on Gettysburg oh yeah thank you and you know those are the kinds of things those are the other you know alternative resources that you can look at that prepare you for testing and as we go along there there are more and more and it really helps the students and so originally Josh you asked me a question and of course my middle aged brain or my senior age brain forgot the second half of it. International can international uh uh acceptance I was looking with can Josh come along can Josh come along to the field trip party maybe not to three mile island josh but to uh other ones maybe um I will send through um Jesse I actually I have your email too that um some paperwork that you can fill out to to get involved because the people who are involved in Asbog is for the love of the profession.
SPEAKER_03We are all volunteers I have been volunteering with my state board or Asbog for more than 15 years. These are unpaid positions we love it. So it's about the profession of geology we are striving to make the profession more public facing more health and safety more awareness people are now with data centers and PFAS and all these other things are getting more and more interested. The problem is is that as geologists you know we don't have that short mindset on time right so we think on geologic time they think on you know forever chemicals are forever and I you know like one of the things that you asked me like in my hydrogeomicrobial one of my projects now is bioremediating PFAS compounds and everybody's like oh you can't do that it can't be done you know da da da well you know and it has to do with actually a geologic reason the microbes which are responsible for degrading these other common contaminants like petroleum hydrocarbons and these other things evolutionary wise they've been around for centuries right so getting a microbe to degrade benzene or naphthalene or some of these petroleum compounds they're common microbes but PFAS compounds have only been around for about 40 you know in our environment they've been around a long time but released into our environment a lot less so evolutionary wise the microbes haven't had a chance to catch up so what I do is I do what I call pushing evolution. So I use microbes and in a particular way through biofilms so that the microbes actually will in a biofilm they will combine with other microbes and combine enzymes and they will start degrading the PFAS because we made the proper environment for them. So the microbes there's a bunch of microbes in landfill EJ right it's been in been traveling through a le landfill for five years and it comes out you know the bottom edge and boom it's got a bunch of microbes in it but it doesn't have nutrients and it doesn't have these other things to do it. And that's what the pushing the evolution is all about is that is that you can speed this up and and I might be too early. Maybe my son will be the person who comes and said hey you know evolution finally cut up and I I did it dad.
SPEAKER_00Well somebody's got to start it though. And that sounds like a really cool uh intersection um between you know geology hydrology and and life um and human impacts environmental science it is sounds like a massive opportunity set for students as well in that you know interdisciplinary space to as you said solve uh you know these problems we're increasingly aware of I would say probably and are increasingly relevant to society so yeah microplastics the same way we can biodegrade microplastics it's it's you know and students if you want to catch a student's attention that's the kind of stuff you know that they're seeing they're interested in and if they realize hey I can go do something about that that's when we're gonna get the best and the brightest we do already get a lot of the best and the brightest geology we are very fortunate for that we do get them but we need more right totally absolutely yeah yeah yeah exactly this whole fiscal cliff and and programs closing and stuff like that these are all steps back and we got to do what we can to keep this wagon train rolling. Yeah absolutely it's a good time to be it's a good time to be a geologist at the moment um and especially as somebody who thinks broadly about uh and and links different processes together different disciplines together so I keep telling people I have the best job in the world and I do. Well that's interesting because I think I have a pretty good job one of the better ones in the world too so um and uh okay so Keith um I uh Josh what what do you think any any closing thoughts here before um we well closing questions I thought that actually your one of the points you wanted to raise Jesse is a really nice one I don't know whether it's too long about whether artificial intelligence you think that is going to have an impact on the Professional Geology Association or the geoscience field in the in the future or whether you're seeing it having an impact already?
SPEAKER_03We do um are we were very aware of AI and its implications for geology. I personally believe a lot of the things that we do can't be replicated with through AI. You know uh you just can't not replicate licking a rock right putting a loss glacial deposit and measuring that silted that gets stuck in your teeth that that kind of stuff but a lot of geology is it's information right information is information but it's also a lot of the information at least right now that's coming back is actually absolutely wrong. And that's one of the things that we really have to keep track of and Josh as as one of the requirements of when I sign a document there's a little certification that's down below it that says this work was done by me or under my direction and I am responsible for it. When you send out a query to chat GPT and you get back all these references or you get back this information it comes back unreferenced. It was not done by you. It was not screened by you it was not prepared by you it was not synthesized by you. It doesn't mean that you can't use that information but you can't use that information really as it comes off of the machine. You have to humanize it you have to do that QAQC check. Without that we're gonna be you know building bridges and trains that go the wrong way and that kind of stuff right it has to be ground truth. And and and I think there is a spot for AI I know we're going through a really rapid growth of it I actually use AI to distill some of my microbial stuff because all these darn microbes are written in Latin right and I suck at Latin um yeah so you know I I need help as well so um but to answer your question is is that that's not up to Asmar or whatever, but uh there are situations where a professional geologist could get in trouble by just relying on AI.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah no I think this is the this is one of the great um challenges I mean for everywhere but especially in in uh you know in education is kind of towing that line between giving students an incentive and access and and getting them to play with these tools to learn the limits. I mean we just had this discussion in my group meeting today about AI and how people are using it in with my research group and you know it's a widely varying answer to how are you using AI. Me myself I'm just increasing to use it and increasingly using it in my day-to-day jobs but it's really as a I have to proof everything right so it's so you know it's coming through in that way and actually I I was toying around with um it for for like creating study questions because one of the students in my research group or several of them use them use AI tools to sort of say hey I'm studying for this exam can you come up with 10 practice questions or 20 practice questions. And so I was messing with it for FG for the FG exam and it's actually pretty good. Like you know I mean you you really you you there are questions that you'll get like a a wrong answer back or they're confusingly worded or you know it's not they're not great questions necessarily but if you just are looking for reps like flashcard style reps at questions to practice and see what you want to you need to study more of they're actually pretty useful I think for these but but knowing the limits is kind of the key right so uh I actually completely agree with you Jesse on that.
SPEAKER_03What one of the things that I think that AI for probably for you is this it makes you more efficient and you're doing more things. And so in in in your in your office in your realm it's helping you because you're do you're able to do more things because you didn't have to struggle through a bunch of data points and if you can get it distilled for you and you can trust it. So I think it's making you more productive right but I'm not necessarily saying it's gonna make the best geology question on a PG.
SPEAKER_00No no definitely not no I agree with that I agree with that. It can't be the the the benchmark um for sure but it's a it can be a useful tool or assistant um in many ways at the moment. I mean who knows where this is going to go to to Braven World but this is like one of the student anxieties right and it rightfully so I feel bad for students graduating in this time period. It's a a time period of deep uncertainty in all aspects and and I think it's something that I we just like asking this AI question to people because we're just trying to survey and get a bunch of answers from professionals out in the workplace. As professors, you know, we know what we know but there's a lot we don't and so um you know people answers from people like you are really valuable for students and one of one of the other things is students in graduating school whether you're a bachelor's or a a master's um they have a reputation of being poor writers right when you go when you go to these career fairs and and people ask you stuff what can I improve on?
SPEAKER_03Writing is always one of the top things because when you go into consulting you're going to be writing reports and charts and graphs and that kind of stuff. But AI has kind of taken that back even more because they're not writing anymore. They're really editing and the editing part doesn't make you a good writer it makes you a good sentence phraser or writer. It doesn't give you from start to finish and so I think in one sense the AI issue for the students going through now might even be more anxiety ridden because a good writer are some of the first people that get picked up in their careers because you can tell a good writer because they're willing to share things that they wrote a thesis or a paper or when you read their resume you can get that. And so those students are always going to be sought after well written unidentified students AI or not are always going to be in demand and and and they're and they're good. So um yeah just one more anxiety a burden for undergrads.
SPEAKER_00It's tough I to I totally get it. I totally get it we just like to ask that question they did. Yeah that that's yeah indeed. Well Keith this has been super informative. I do want to have a conversation with you about uh you know microbiology and how it relates to geology in this intersection. I think there's a lot more to explore there of relevance that students and and other people would be interested in. So maybe we can set up a a part two to talk about uh geomicrobiology. Um but but we would like to end with our our closing question here which is uh what has been your best day as a geoscientist oh wow okay so I think I've kind of been talking to you a little bit about you know how I'm I started out and I I'm doing things uh new every day and so I'm gonna say my best day is tomorrow. Oh good answer.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna do some tomorrow that I have not done yet and so I'm looking forward to tomorrow and what it brings and I'm gonna actually tell you it's gonna probably be something with how I can use zeolites to act as a medium for my bioremediation projects.
SPEAKER_00Oh very cool okay zeolite so now see now I've got your mind going yeah now we're in the metamorphic yeah how does that work with yeah yeah now we're talking about metamorphic rocks this is good you didn't even you didn't even seed that question with me but yeah so yeah so um like I say uh you know I've had a lot of great days I've had a lot of really cool jobs I had the coolest job in the world and every day's have been a great day we all have ups and downs but I'm looking forward tomorrow as much as I look forward to today. Oh that's a great answer. What's the best mineral or uh rock in your sample collection in your house or your orchard?
SPEAKER_03I have some really cool agates from the North Shore of Minnesota and I have a friend who's got one of the best agate collections he has agates the size of footballs. And I have one that he that he gave me as well as he um he used to make these tables out of green uh river formation fish fossils and uh things like uh piranhas and stuff. I have a piranha fossil in my office downstairs that is is almost as big as that Danish flag. Wow and it is so cool. And everybody who comes in and looks at it I mean the teeth the scales the ribs everything it's it's really cool. I like the I I I have not been to a state that I have not enjoyed the geology. I like the geology I which is why I keep coming back to Chris Nebraska is awesome. Gotta tell Chris Nebraska is cool.
SPEAKER_00You know what there's a lot wrong with Chris Bohoye so I'll I'll tell him that you said there's a lot of he's got a lot of issues over there and he needs to step it up a little bit.
SPEAKER_03When he says if I ever find myself in Nebraska I I feel I have probably done something wrong. The answer to that is no he's expanding his horizon that's right I'll meet him I'll meet him in Omaha at any time.
SPEAKER_00He's gotten out of his little tiny B Bane bro box that he lives in over there in Michigan that's great. I can't wait to pass that along to him that's okay. He can take it up with me if he needs to yeah absolutely all right Keith thank you very much for the time we appreciate this and thanks for being with Asbog and the professional geology licensure and we will we will definitely be focusing more on this topic in the future and reaching out to you again as well I'm sure and you guys keep up the good work uh get the word out and and the your podcasts are awesome. Thank you appreciate it thanks for listening that was another discussion we had on the professional geology licensure process part of our series on professional geology licensure thanks for listening and please send us any questions you have with a contact us link on our website plantgeocast.com there's also a contact us link on our Camp Geo Mobile app which Keith was was kind enough to reference as a potentially good study guide for the FG exam or PG exam to kind of get these basics of geoscience under your belt. So send us an email follows on all social media at PlantgeoCast and download our Camp Geo mobile app first link in the show notes. Take care Josh see you just peace